Talk:Iran–Iraq War

USS Stark Incident

Currently the section for this notes that an Iraqi Mirage fighter jet fired the missiles at the USS Stark--but shouldn't this read more like "a modified Dassault Falcon 50" fired the missiles, or something along those lines (in correct wikipedia syntax of course)

I didn't want to make the edit because I've got no idea how to cite anything, but the USS Stark Incident page cites the following (along with two other relevant citations): https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/how-modified-iraqi-falcon-50-business-jet-nearly-destroyed-us-frigate-66772

Worth noting I suppose that the Stark initially thought it was a Mirage fighter, perhaps that led to the confusion? 2603:8080:7400:DF2:452:8089:9BB5:7889 (talk) 17:52, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

How the war started, and the addition of Iranian attempting to provoke war.

I have been studying the Iran-Iraq war for a couple of years now, and something the wikipedia page does not cover is how much iran actually provoked Iraq into an attack, also the page includes stuff about how Saddams regime wanted to take kuzhesthan, but this dosent have much sufficent evidence, and alot of sources differ, expescially considering Iraq had accepted a cease-fire on september the 28th, 4 days after the war offically started, which they wouldnt have accepted if they had wanted to taken iranian land,

"Within days, Iraqi forces invaded Iran. At the same time, Iraq bombed Iranian air bases and other strategic targets. In the week following the invasion, the UN Security Council called for a cease-fire and appealed to Iran and Iraq to settle their dispute peacefully. The Iraqi president replied, saying that Iraq would accept a cease-fire provided Iran did as well. Iran’s response, however, was negative. The war thus continued and in succeeding years was extended to the gulf area."[1]Source,

Also before this, Saddam had constanly praised and congraulated Khomeini on his success, with Saddam quoting in one of his speeches, "We congraulate the Iranian people on there freedom.', even after Khomeini announced that the shias must rise up and get rid of the "Infidel" Saddam Hussein, Saddam responded yet again with praise, just wanting to establish mutual ties, instead, Iran constantly had border skirmishes, and launched artillery strikes onto the Iraqi side of the shatt-al arab, and even on populated towns.

The Iran–Iraq War: 1980–1988, Osprey Publishing "It is difficult to pinpoint when tensions began to build, but there were frequent cross-border skirmishes, largely at Iran's instigation. Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini called on Iraqis to overthrow the Ba'ath government, which was received with considerable anger in Baghdad. On 17 July 1979, despite Khomeini's call, Saddam gave a speech praising the Iranian Revolution and called for an Iraqi-Iranian friendship based on non-interference in each other's internal affairs. When Khomeini rejected Saddam's overture by calling for Islamic revolution in Iraq, Saddam was alarmed. Iran's new Islamic administration was regarded in Baghdad as an irrational, existential threat to the Ba'ath government, especially because the Ba'ath party, having a secular nature, discriminated and posed a threat to the Shia movement in Iraq, whose clerics were Iran's allies within Iraq and whom Khomeini saw as oppressed."

If anyone wants aswell, i have documented violations by the Iranians on iraqi land pre-war, which are up to a 100 documented cases of Iranian violations of Iraqi soverignity, the war (unoffically) started on september 4th according to the Iraqi's, which wouldnt be far-feched, due to the fact the Iranians were already attacking Iraqi towns with artillery and attempted to assainate Tariz Aziz, which failed, and instead killed several Iraqi Students, which was one of the reasons Iraq decided to cross the border, the war was meant to last only a week, just to warn the Iranians, and attempt to force-khomeini into argeeing to non-aggression, which is why Iraq agreed to UN security councils proposal for peace.

The Myth of Iraq wanting kuzehstan is extremely debunkable, it has been proven countless times, that Iraq did not want to annex any Iranian-land, both Saddam publically declared this, and so did his Ambassdor.

"We have no claim or ambition in any Iranian territory at all, we have just said that defintely." - Sa'dun Hammadi

"So the Iraqi army will withdraw from the east bank of the Shatt-al-arab?" - Interviewer

"Certainly." - Sa'dun Hammadi

I have loads of archived footage, and videos, and documents etc etc if anyone wants more proof, the above interview was filmed, i have the footage of it if anyone wants, i am just seeking approval to make the large-ish edit to the article, to include a more correct version. Local Mandaean (talk) 02:36, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

@Local Mandaean This is interesting. Where is this footage? I think the page regarding the Iran-Iraq War has bias towards Iran. The entire prewar section almost glosses over Iran's aggression and only mentions it sparingly, which contributes to a false narrative of "Iraq started the war unprovoked in a land grab of post-revolutionary Iran" More needs to be written about Iranian aggression. KiddKrazy (talk) 18:50, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

The claim that tensions and cross-border incidents were largely instigated by Iran is not substantiated by more recent scholarship. For example, see Murray and Woods 2014 on Iraq's many provocative actions leading up to the invasion of Iran on September 22, 1980:

"By late 1979, there was little left of Saddam's optimism about accommodation with the revolutionary government next door. ... [Saddam] expelled tens of thousands of Iraqi Shi'as, attempted to organize his potential allies in the Arab world (particularly among the Gulf states) into a united pan-Arab front against Iran, had the spiritual leader of the Dawa Party killed, and supported separatist Kurdish and Arab elements within Iran. In April 1980, the Iraqis escalated the level of violence. On the last day of the month, a group of Iranian Arabs, recruited and trained by the Iraqis, seized the Iranian embassy in London. ... By the end of summer, serious cross-border penetrations by aircraft and artillery raids by both sides had developed. Reporting of these events is generally unreliable, but the Iraqis complained publically of 544 incidents while Iran reported 797 cases involving airspace violations, artillery strikes, and cross-border raids. ... On 7 September 1980, Iraq accused Iran of shelling Iraqi villages in the territories of Zain al-Qaws and Saif Saad on 4 September 1980. Iraq demanded that the Iranian forces in those territories evacuate and return the villages to Iraq. ... Iraqi forces then moved to 'liberate' the villages, and on 10 September announced that its forces had done so in a short, sharp military engagement. ... On 22 September, Iraqi units crossed the frontier."—Source: Murray, Williamson; Woods, Kevin M. (2014). "A context of 'bitterness and anger'". The Iran–Iraq War, A Military and Strategic History. Cambridge University Press. pp. 58–63. ISBN 978-1107062290.

According to the Secretary-General of the United Nations: "Even if before the outbreak of the conflict there had been some encroachment by Iran on Iraqi territory, such encroachment did not justify Iraq's aggression against Iran—which was followed by Iraq's continuous occupation of Iranian territory during the conflict".–Source: "IRAQ BLAMED FOR STARTING IRAN WAR". The Washington Post. December 10, 1991. Retrieved December 24, 2024.

The fact that Iraq had already regained all disputed territory twelve days prior to launching a massive surprise attack deep inside Iran proper makes it difficult to see the invasion as a valid case of preemption under international law. As Kanan Makiya writes: "Granted that this might have been a genuine motive for abrogating the 1975 treaty, and reclaiming title to the whole Shatt, what was the point of the invasion on September 22? Iraq had taken back by unilateral action on September 10 the only strips of territory it still claimed under the treaty. There was no longer any 'territory' as such on the other side to conquer. The Ba'th had already followed the Shah's example of 1971 when he unilaterally took over the three islands in the Gulf."–Source: Makiya, Kanan (1998). Republic of Fear: The Politics of Modern Iraq, Updated Edition. University of California Press. p. 270. ISBN 9780520921245.

KiddKrazy, in this edit, you wrote: "The Iraqis continued to occupy 9600 sq.km of Iranian land and maintained full sovereignty over the Shatt al-Arab. It was in 1990, when Iran and Iraq signed a formal peace treaty, that it went to status quo ante bellum." In context, you were arguing that Iraq holding some Iranian territory until a formal settlement could be reached two years after the ceasefire proved that Iraq emerged "victorious" in its war aims. However, Iran accepting a ceasefire without first regaining all of its occupied territories could be seen as contradictory with the common narrative of a fanatical Iran that was wholly incapable of negotiation and determined on war regardless of the human cost.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 20:19, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

@TheTimesAreAChanging Different scholars and historians have differing opinions regarding the war. Alistair Finlan stated that Saddam was drawn into a conflict with Iran due to border conflicts and interference in Iraqi affairs. He also said the war was only meant to be a short offensive to send a political message to Iran.

"Source: Finlan, Alistair (2003). Essential Histories – The Gulf War 1991. New York: Routledge. p. 1. ISBN 0-203-57971-2."

The cause of the war was not only over disputed territory, which Iraq liberated on 10 sep. 1980.

It also has to do with countering Iran's aggression against Iraq. This is highlighted by Israeli historian Efraim Karsh.

Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini called on Iraqis to overthrow the Ba'ath government, which was received with considerable anger in Baghdad. On 17 July 1979, despite Khomeini's call, Saddam gave a speech praising the Iranian Revolution and called for an Iraqi–Iranian friendship based on non-interference in each other's internal affairs. Iran's new Islamic administration was regarded in Baghdad as an irrational, existential threat to the Ba'ath government, especially because the Ba'ath party, having a secular nature, discriminated against and posed a threat to the fundamentalist Shia movement in Iraq, whose clerics were Iran's allies within Iraq and whom Khomeini saw as oppressed.

"Source: Karsh, Efraim (2002). The Iran–Iraq War: 1980–1988. Osprey Publishing. pp. 1–8, 12–16, 19–82. ISBN 978-1-84176-371-2."

Fact of the matter is, Iraq liberated Zayn al Qaws and Seif Saad (areas promised to Iraq by the Algiers Treaty) and have kept them since. Iraq also defended successfully against Iranian aggression. Also, Iraq did not capture the Shatt al-Arab waterway until 22 Sep. 1980 due to Iraq's commitment to the Algiers Agreement, which was only nullified after Iran did it.

Militarily speaking, the war was not inconclusive. Iraq had liberated Iraqi land occupied by Iran and recaptured Iranian land. and strengthened its army. (it became the 4th largest army in the world) The Tawakalna operations, together with Iran's failed attempt to capture Basra had crushed the Iranian Army and demoralised the Iranian public.

Economically speaking, the war damaged both countries economically, with Iran nearing bankruptcy and Iraq owing huge sums of debt.

Geopolitically speaking, Iraq came out ahead. They had made many new allies through the war and Iran continued as a pariah state. Only after the Gulf War did this change, as did the narrative of who started and who won.

Iraq made it clear from 28. sep 1980 and onwards that their goal was to end the war, to get rid of Iranian meddling and to prevent Iran from pushing around Iraq while expecting no consequences.

After the UN-proposed ceasefire in 1982, it became clear that Iran's goal was to topple the Ba'ath government and to install a theocracy in Iraq.

Iran was unable to topple Saddam's government and install their theocracy and ended up accepting the same ceasefire they rejected from 1980-1987.

Iraq ended the war, got rid of Iranian meddling, kept their disputed areas and largely prevented Iranian meddling in Iraq through the duration of Saddam's reign. They also had the added bonus of a strengthened army.

Iran did not achieve their goals in the war while Iraq achieved theirs, therefore: Iraqi victory. KiddKrazy (talk) 21:51, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Sino Soviet split and Arab Israeli conflict

The USSR supported Iraq while China supported Iran. Also Israel launched an airstrike on the Iraqi nuke reactor Operation Opera 2A00:23EE:2738:4326:451E:A45E:F52B:498B (talk) 13:13, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

Can the Iran-Iraq War be considered an Iraqi Victory?

The largely popular consensus around the war is that it was a stalemate until the war ended in 1988. This is largely incorrect, due to Iraq breaking the stalemate in 1988, months before the ceasefire was signed, which is what many consider as the end of the war, with 5 decisive victories which expelled all Iranian forces from Iraq and regained ≈9000 km² of Iranian land. This, along with Iraq being able to force Iran to the peace table, despite Iran's repeated provocations before the Iraqi invasion of Iran in 1980 and Iran's repeated refusals of any attempts at peace, whether it be by the United Nations or the Iraqi government. In addition to this, Iraq had become a powerhouse as a result of an unpreccedented military buildup. These points alone would usually constitute victory for a nation, but yet they do not in the case of Iraq. Instead, the war gets labeled as Inconclusive, largely due to the stalemate from 1982-1987 and Iraq giving back their captured land to Iran in 16 August 1990. KiddKrazy (talk) 12:12, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

I also wonder why certain editors always revert the territorial change to Status quo ante bellum when the Iraqi occupation of Iranian land didn't end until many years after 1988 (which to be fair the note states) Damian Lew (talk) 12:29, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

@Damian Lew i tried to change it to include that, but someone reverted it saying that the infobox needs to be simplistic and that is what the note is for. Still though, i think the war can be considered an Iraqi Victory, largely due to the points i made. KiddKrazy (talk) 12:35, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

To quote WP:RESULT: The "result" parameter has often been a source of contention. Particular attention should be given to the advice therein. The infobox does not have the scope to reflect nuances, and should be restricted to "X victory" or "Inconclusive". MrOllie (talk) 13:19, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

@MrOllie True, but could there be an argument for changing it from "Inconclusive" to "Iraqi victory" based on the points i made? KiddKrazy (talk) 13:32, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

That would not be an accurate summary of the article (particularly the 'Aftermath' section) or the sources it cites. Making your own argument, not based direct statements from sources, is original research, and is not how Wikipedia is written. MrOllie (talk) 14:11, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

@MrOllie Oh. Makes sense. Thanks for explanation. KiddKrazy (talk) 14:14, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

@KiddKrazy: Since you were pleased with the explanation, why did you disregard it three months later? Mikrobølgeovn (talk) 14:56, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

@Mikrobølgeovn The more i research this war, the more it becomes an Iraqi victory and a war caused by Iran's Radical rhetoric.

Iran starts the war by interference in Iraq's affairs (a breach of the 1975 Algiers Agreement) by way of inciting sectarian hatred in Iraq and numerous border conflicts against Iraq. Iranian-backed terrorists also attempted to assassinate Tariq Aziz (Assyrian Ba'ath Party official) when he visited a University in Baghdad, instead killing dozens of students. Iran regards the 1975 Algiers Treaty void on 14 sep. 1980 and Iraq nullifies it on 17 sep. 1980.

Iraq launches an invasion 22. sep 1980 (what's considered the beginning of the war) as a response to Iranian intrusions, they initially capture Zayn al Qaws and Seif Saad, areas promised to Iraq by the Algiers Treaty. They also invade Qasre Shihrin to put further pressure on Iran.

On 28. sep 1980, the UN Security Council issues a resolution demanding a ceasefire, which Iraq agreed to, but Iran boycotted the session altogether. Iraq then continued invading to put further pressure on Iran to accept, to no avail.

In 1982, Iraq retreats from their captured Iranian land in an effort to reconcile with Iran. However Iran continued to reject all attempts for ceasefire, instead presenting Iraq with ceasefire on impossible terms.

Since then, the war devolves into trench warfare and both sides lose a lot of materials and money. Iraq continues to accept ceasefire attempts and Iran continues their hateful rhetoric.

In 1987, when Iranians attempted to capture Basra, they failed spectacularly, losing their forward momentum by enormous casualties taken and only captures slivers of land in Basra.

In April 1988, after months of Iraqi preparing, the Iraqis swiftly liberated Al-Faw. Surprised by the overwhelming success, they expanded it into a larger offensive to drive Iran out of Iraq. The offensive was a decisive Iraqi victory, with the Iranian forces on the run and Iraq liberating occupied land in Iraq and recapturing land in Iran (9600 sq.km)

The swift and decisive Iraqi victories led to the Iranian government to accept the ceasefire and quit fighting. The Iraqis continued to occupy 9600 sq.km of Iranian land and maintained full sovereignty over the Shatt al-Arab. It was in 1990, when Iran and Iraq signed a formal peace treaty, that it went to status quo ante bellum.

Both countries were economically devastated by this war, though Iran suffered higher losses. Iran suffered also higher casualties and lost land. The Iraqi Army was strengthened, becoming the 4th largest army in the world. Iraq also gained powerful new allies in the Middle East.

Iran's goal in the war was to topple the Baghdad government and install a theocracy.

Iraq's goal in the war was to defend against Iranian aggression and weaken Iran.

Iraq achieved its goal, and therefore it won.

Since those three months passed, i had been doing a lot more research and it became clear that the war is very different from the common narrative. KiddKrazy (talk) 15:34, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

"Iraq achieved its goal, and therefore it won. Since those three months passed, i had been doing a lot more research and it became clear that the war is very different from the common narrative." Again, the above is original research and is not how Wikipedia decides article content. Please provide reliable sources rather than original analysis if you are seeking to establish consensus for any change to article content. Additionally, note that Wikipedia reflects the "common narrative" found in reliable sources by design; if you are unable to accept that, then you should advocate for your views in a more appropriate forum.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 15:52, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Too little is written about the provocations and attacks of Iran leading to the war.

In the "prelude" section, not much is written about the provocations of Iran, despite it being a major reason for the war, it is mentioned in passing as if its a small detail. Some key details regarding provocations are not even written about here.

I translated the Farsi Wikipedia page regarding the war and it included speeches Khomeini made calling for an overthrow of the Ba'ath government, Iranian newspaper articles about Iranian attacks against Iraq before the war, the attempted assassination of Tariq Aziz and lots more information.

They also write about the supposed "fact" that Saddam wanted to take over Khuzestan, when this can be disproved. Both by statements issued by Saddam and his ministers saying they had no interest in a land grab and wanted to spread the message that Khomeini's regime could not threaten Iraq, which makes sense regarding previous Iranian provocations and by the UN resolution to stop the war passed shortly after the outbreak of full on war in sep. 1980, where Iraq accepted but Iran denied.

Local Mandaean raised this issue before, though it went unanswered.

So the question is: Why? Why are key details of the prelude to the war left out, as if to spread the false narrative that Iraq invaded unprovoked and out of opportunism? KiddKrazy (talk) 14:01, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Broken link

Ref. 126: "Viewpoints of the Iranian political and military elites". Archived from the original on 3 March 2016. Retrieved 31 December 2015.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.34.103.21 (talk) 19:59, 23 November 2024 (UTC)