Wikipedia:Media copyright questions

Media copyright questions
Welcome to the Media Copyright Questions page, a place for help with image copyrights, tagging, non-free content, and related questions. For all other questions please see Wikipedia:Questions. How to add a copyright tag to an existing image On the description page of the image (the one whose name starts File:), click Edit this page. From the page Wikipedia:File copyright tags, choose the appropriate tag: For work you created yourself, use one of the ones listed under the heading "For image creators". For a work downloaded from the internet, please understand that the vast majority of images from the internet are not appropriate for use on Wikipedia. Exceptions include images from flickr that have an acceptable license, images that are in the public domain because of their age or because they were created by the United States federal government, or images used under a claim of fair use. If you do not know what you are doing, please post a link to the image here and ask BEFORE uploading it. For an image created by someone else who has licensed their image under an acceptable Creative Commons or other free license, or has released their image into the public domain, this permission must be documented. Please see Requesting copyright permission for more information. Type the name of the tag (e.g.; {{Cc-by-4.0}}), not forgetting {{ before and }} after, in the edit box on the image's description page. Remove any existing tag complaining that the image has no tag (for example, {{untagged}}) Hit Publish changes. If you still have questions, go on to "How to ask a question" below. How to ask a question To ask a new question hit the "Click here to start a new discussion" link below. Please sign your question by typing ~~~~ at the end. Check this page for updates, or request to be notified on your talk page. Don't include your email address, for your own privacy. We will respond here and cannot respond by email. Note for those replying to posted questions If a question clearly does not belong on this page, reply to it using the template {{mcq-wrong}} and, if possible, leave a note on the poster's talk page. For copyright issues relevant to Commons where questions arising cannot be answered locally, questions may be directed to Commons:Commons:Village pump/Copyright.
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File:Owl WTP.jpg

The image file, File:Owl WTP.jpg, must be uploaded onto either Wikimedia or Wikipedia, preferably Wikimedia, by someone who has an account. Oh, and in case you're wondering, it must be a picture of Owl from the Disney Winnie the Pooh franchise, and it must be this image here. Just click on the link [1]. 2601:401:4300:3720:4EB9:5BA8:5D2C:AEAF (talk) 20:55, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

There are couple of issues with your request. The first one is that it's not clear why it must be that particular image Wikipedia uses when any image of the character could possibly be used to serve the same encyclopedic purpose. If an image is needed, one from the original book itself or as close as possible to when the book was published would be much more preferable than someone's fan art image since it would be likely a much more accurate representation of how the book's author and its illustrator "saw" the character.

The other problem is that the provenance and copyright status of that fan art image is unclear, which most likely means it would need to be treated as non-free content. Wikipedia's non-free content use policy is quite restrictive and non-free images are generally not considered acceptable to use for illustrating individual entries in list articles. This is probably the reason why there are only five images currently being used in that list article, none of which are licensed as non-free content. Since there doesn't seem to be an individual stand-alone article about the character "Owl", the list article is probably the only place to use it on Wikipedia, and given that the book itself seem to now be within the public domain, and images taken from it are also most likely within the public domain; this makes justifying the use of any non-free one in any article is likely going to be quite hard. -- Marchjuly (talk) 00:02, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

There aren't any images of Owl from the Disney Winnie the Pooh franchise on Wikipedia, nor Wikimedia, for that matter. I need it for my draft article I'm working on Owl from "Winnie-the-Pooh". I need an image of Owl from the Disney Version of Winnie the Pooh. 2601:401:4300:3720:E295:6640:4B95:4922 (talk) 22:27, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

1. Such a use in an article is going to be a blatant copyright violation, not fair use; and Disney's copyright lawyers are notoriously merciless and well-funded. The same goes (but even more so) for uploading such an image to the Wikimedia Commons.

2. Fair-use images can't be used in drafts anyway. --Orange Mike | Talk 01:25, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

Doesn't Gopher (Winnie the Pooh), with its fair use image, contradict this? Commander Keane (talk) 05:13, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Gopher (Winnie the Pooh) isn't a draft so Orangemike's point 2 above (i.e. WP:NFCC#9 and WP:Drafts#Creating and editing drafts) doesn't apply. As for point 1, the Gopher character seems to have been introduced by Disney in 1966 (i.e. it's not a character from the original book); so, it's use for primary identification purposes in a stand-alone article about the character is probably OK per relevant policy. It's use in other articles or in other ways, on the other hand, probably wouldn't be considered to be policy compliant; for example, trying to use in List of Winnie-the-Pooh characters is likely not going to be allowed per WP:NFLISTS and item 6 of WP:NFC#UUI. It's probably not a copyright violation per se (fair use could be argued perhaps) to try to use the file in such a way, but Wikipedia policy is much more restrictive than fair use. What could possibly be a copyright violation per WP:NFC#Meeting the previous publication criterion and WP:COPYLINK, though, is uploading an image posted on an online forum or fandom site, unless it's clear the site is either under the control of Disney or the image was uploaded by Disney. -- Marchjuly (talk) 06:03, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Hey, I think I found something. Just click on this link right here [2]. 2601:401:4300:3720:ADE:BAB7:7DA:FE5E (talk) 20:44, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

File:Kemal and Magdalena Hemady.webp

I doubt that the file is subject to the NFCC as the file was first published and presumably registered in 1931 per its description and was in the public domain (at least in the Philippines) as early as 1962 per Commons:Copyright rules by territory/Philippines#For works created before 1998. -Ian Lopez @ 08:20, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

I think that is a perfectly reasonable analysis. One might question whether such a family photo were "published" in the sense of US law, a condition for it to be in the public domain in the US, but for that it would have sufficed if a professional photographer took it and sold it to their client. Felix QW (talk) 18:31, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Internet Archive outage notice: non-free or PD-text?

File:Internet archive website, during DOS attack, 13th October 2024.png was uploaded as a non-free image; however, I don't see it as meeting the threshold of originality, especially the original October 13th upload which consisted of only three sentences of text. Unless anyone here thinks this should remain a non-free image, I intend to propose undeletion of the high-resolution versions and moving to Commons as facts, data, and unoriginal information which is common property without sufficiently creative authorship in a general typeface (from PD-text). Dan Leonard (talk • contribs) 06:05, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

@Dan Leonard: I feel I agree here. Per C:COM:Screenshots, "screenshots must not be uploaded to Wikimedia Commons unless all content in them is under a free license or in the public domain", we have most of the stuff on this file free, including the Archive's logo. Whatever is little, could be considered de minimis. _Regards, Aafi ^(talk) 17:07, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

File:Richard Sharp Smith.png

Given that Richard Sharp Smith died in 1924, there seems to be a pretty good chance that File:Richard Sharp Smith.png can be relicensed as public domain per c:COM:US. Can this be relicensed as either {{PD-US-expired}}? -- Marchjuly (talk) 10:53, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

I think so, by the same reasoning as in the thread below. Felix QW (talk) 09:26, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

PD-US-expired?

If File:Frederick Baker 1914.jpg dates back to 1914 as its file description states, then it should have already entered the public domain by now, shouldn't it have? Can the file's licensing be changed to {{PD-US-expired}}? -- Marchjuly (talk) 01:19, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

If it was published rather than merely created then, it would certainly be in the public domain. Since it very much looks like a formal portrait and sale to the sitter was generally held to constitute publication, I would support that assumption and would be comfortable with relicensing accordingly. Felix QW (talk) 09:25, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

File:Aspects of twentieth century painting, 1963.pdf

Hi, This is a US publication, in the public domain due to lack of copyright notice, but it contains images of works of art from other countries, which are not in the public domain outside USA. For this reason, it is questioned on Commons. Would it be OK to move it on the English Wikipedia? Thanks, Yann (talk) 16:01, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

World Heritage Site nomination

The application[3] to UNESCO by (it seems) the Canadian government, contains, at a minimum, a very useful map showing the wreck sites of interest in Red Bay, Newfoundland and Labrador. (Search for "27M" or "24M" in the document and you will get to the maps that show the locations of these wrecks, as well as other archaeological sites on land and the proposed heritage site boundary.) The copyright situation here is beyond me. Who would own any copyright, the authors or UNESCO? In whichever case applies, do they assert copyright (I cannot find the word copyright in the document) and if so, how long would that last? The actual entry on the UNESCO site[4] gives me (but perhaps not others) little clue on the copyright status of any of this stuff, though I have spotted the copyright symbol on photos on the UNESCO site. It also seems to give a link in to the pdf file mentioned above ("the application"), but with no copyright statement that I can find. Is this a Canadian government situation? Even if it is, I need a bit of help on this.

Thanks, ThoughtIdRetired _TIR 21:03, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

Sosumi sound file

Sosumi ("so, sue me") is a half-second sound file, once used in Apple OS as a bleep sound. It has been uploaded to Enwiki at File:Sosumi.mp3 with a "Trademark" tag (originally a different tag). The uploader User:Jibblesnark86 and myself would like clarity if this is permissible, and what kind of tag should it have. Thank you. I think the uploader doesn't want to be sued! -- GreenC 15:27, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

File:Karl Marx, The Story of His Life (first edition).jpg

As far as I can see, this file is not copyrighted in any way. Mehring died 1919, the book was published 1918. So this looks like public domain. Am I right?

I can't manage to export it to commons. Can anyone please help me? Thanks, --Dick Bos (talk) 16:57, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Hi Dick Bos. File:Karl Marx, The Story of His Life (first edition).jpg is going to need to be PD or otherwise freely licensed in both the US (where the Commons servers are located) and Germany (the likely country of first publication) in order for Commons to host this file. Given the publication date of the book, this probably is PD in Germany per c:COM:Germany, but which of the licenses mentioned on the Commons page about Germany should be used is unclear (at least to me). So, you might want to ask about this at c:COM:VPC to try to narrow down which license fits best.

Since you didn't scan the cover yourself, and there's no url provided as the source, you might want to double check via Google Images or something similar that the cover is really the cover of the first edition. The quick check I did shows that the book has been republished several times over the years with different covers, and if even the version uploaded to Wikipedia seems to come in different colors. Unfortunately, the uploader of the file won't be able to help you there; so, you're kind of on your own.

Once you know the cover is correct and which license to use, you can then do one of the following: (1) download this local file to your computer and reupload it to Commons under said license; (2) replace the file's non-free licensing with a PD one, replace the file's non-free use rationale with {{Information}} and tag the file with {{Copy to Wikimedia Commons}} for someone else to move; or (3) find a better cleaner higher resolution of the same cover art, upload that one to Commons, replace the non-free one with it in the article about the book, and then tag the no longer being used non-free one with {{Orfud}} so that it ends up deleted per WP:F5 or with {{Now Commons}} so that it ends up being deleted per WP:F8. If you opt for (2), you could even possibly request that the older originally uploaded version (deleted per WP:F5) be restored via WP:REFUND so that's the one that ends up being moved instead. In addition, since the German copyright licenses used on Commons won't likely work here on Wikipedia, you might need to temporarly use something like {{PD-old-auto}} together with {{PD-US-expired}} when converting the file from non-free to PD until the file has been moved to Commons and then change the licensing to the better German copyright one after the move. -- Marchjuly (talk) 05:25, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for your extensive answer! I appreciate this very much. I'll try to find some time soon to work through all your suggestions and advices. For now many greetings, --Dick Bos (talk) 13:50, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Troom Troom logos

Both File:Troom Troom (main logo).webp and File:Troom Troom (Ukranian version).jpg were uploaded as non-free without non-free use rationales; so, they've been tagged for speedy deletion per WP:F6. Since they're essentially the same logo with just a different color scheme, both files aren't really needed per WP:NFCC#3a. However, the logo design itself seems too simple to be eligible for copyright protection per c:COM:TOO US, and, at least in my opinion, can be converted to a PD license.

The "problem", though, is that it's not clear which country should be considered the country of first publication/origin. The article Troom Troom states it is for a "multi-national YouTube channel" but doesn't state where those who created the channel are based out of. Converting this file to {{PD-logo}} would make sense if US is the country of origin, but I don't know how to verify that. Converting the file to {{PD-ineligible-USonly}} would makes sense if a country with a lower TOO than the US is the country of origin, but (once again) I don't know how to verify that. Is it safe to assume that because YouTube itself is based out of the US that the country of first publication should also be the US? -- Marchjuly (talk) 04:43, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Footage of George Hackenschmidt

Footage of the professional wrestler George Hackenschmidt from 1908 has been discovered: https://www.ngataonga.org.nz/search-use-collection/search/F18094/. Given its age, is this public domain? Could it be uploaded to Commons? It is an important piece of professional wrestling history and would be good to have on Wikipedia if possible. McPhail (talk) 10:18, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

@McPhail presumably this is the match between Hackenschmidt and Rogers fought in London in February 1908? Is there any indication of who made the film, and when and where, if ever, it has ever been shown (published)? Nthep (talk) 10:58, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

There is a bit of a write-up on the origins here. As you say it is the 1908 London match. The filming was done by the "Charles Urban Trading Company". McPhail (talk) 11:05, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

@McPhail ah, great, so we know it's been screened somewhere, contemporaneously. We have an article on Charles Urban from which we know he was based in London. If this became a newsreel that made its way to New Zealand its very likely to have been screened in the UK and is therefore PD in its country of origin. Due to its age its also PD in the US, which is needed for this to be uploaded to Commons. The only fly in the ointment is the presence of the ngatonga logo which is copyrighted. What is needed is an un-logoed copy. If there's no un-logoed copy, there are no problems with linking to the ngatonga copy. Nthep (talk) 13:49, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

I have had a look at English papers and can see that the Bioscope newsreel of the fight was shown as early as March 1908 in the UK, so it's PD in the UK. Nthep (talk) 14:56, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Member badge

I received a notice from Iruka13 regarding the image of a pin I had scanned, cleaned up, reduced and then uploaded. May I ask that one of the copyright experts help me understand this?

The image in question is File:The badge of the Wolf's Head Society.png. The comment was that it may fail the first non-free content criterion.

I believe this usage is supportable under fair use. Would someone help me clarify the license statement here, or explain how my thinking is wrong? The salient points are:

1. The original gold badge was designed and created circa 1883.
2. By the time this particular badge was made, several hundred had been cast, and distributed to members.
3. The description from the source of the photo of the badge indicates it was awarded to a Yale student and member of this society in 1936. Logically, the badge was made prior to his initiation date.
4. I assume the photo itself was taken in November of 2021, by a local paper, according to the source of the photo.
5. Members of the Fraternity and Sorority Project group have searched for online examples of this pin, and this is the only one we have found. Hence, no free alternative is known at this writing.
6. The badge is discussed within the Symbolism section of the article, as is standard for similar articles where we have uploaded photos of other badges.
7. I have adjusted the color, saturation and contrast of the photo significantly, also cropped the original photo and have reduced it in size by approximately 80% from the original. Do these adjustments take it out of copyright, as the image has been 'artistically adjusted' and made substantially smaller?

Does the copyright concern here have to do with the Original badge, with the specific casting of this badge (1936), or use of the photo from 2021? Jax MN (talk) 08:39, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

The original design of the item is obviously in the public domain. So to get a freely licensed photo, you have to take one. What's stopping you from taking one? — Ирука¹³ 08:57, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

I do not have this badge in my possession. Nor do any of the pin collectors with whom I have discussed this item. This particular badge is thus fairly difficult to find, yet we know that some thousand or so exist. So rather than taking a photo, I artistically adjusted the photo I found via a web search.

From which of the three dates would we calculate copyright for this situation? From 1883, or from 1936, or from 2021? Jax MN (talk) 09:12, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

Because it is a photo of a three-dimensional object, the 2021 photo will remain under copyright until long after you and I are deceased. None of the changes you made will affect the fact that such revised versions are derivative works from a very copyrighted image. --Orange Mike | Talk 13:31, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

Thank you both for responding. This is a serious inquiry, and I'll stipulate that you likely know more about copyright rules here on Wikipedia than I do. Would you explain further? We use the carve-out that a single image (logo, coat-of-arms or pin image) may be used in the infobox, low-res, as an identifier of an organization. We make diligent efforts to ensure there is no commercial viability for the JPG or PNG we upload, vis-a-vis the the original work. Thousands of these have now been uploaded, and approved by administrators. Secondarily, our standard infobox has optional parameters that give room for a thumbnail image of a member badge and/or pledge pin, also in the infobox. These are uploaded IF their symbolism is discussed in the body text, as a visual aid to that discussion. The Upload File genie has a standard pathway for this kind of usage. We typically find our source images from organizational history books, the societies themselves, or as images that online merchants provide. None of these vendors have ever complained about this, as our efforts arguably help them in promoting membership or the collection or sale of such antique pins. The vast majority of the original pin castings were designed prior to 1924 but later photographs and printed images may have been made after that year. Again, the organizations (fraternities) themselves routinely welcome our use of these images on articles about their groups.

After cropping, color-correcting, fixing inadvertent artifacts, flattening, and after we make significant reductions in size to result in images that are always <100KB, I ask, are works such as the resultant photo of the Wolf's Head pin sufficiently distinct from the original that they are allowable here? Over a decade and a half, several thousand of these have been approved by admins. Across our Project usage, these appear to have no commercial viability, in comparison to the original sources. Jax MN (talk) 19:39, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

As explained by Orange Mike, the item in question can be PD but whoever took the image will still hold the copyright of the image. I've reverted my edits to pictures of such pins. An alternative will be to contact the fraternities for them to take a picture of their pin and license them as a CC file so the file can be uploaded to Wikimedia Commons for use on other Wikipedias as well. --Min☠︎rax^«¦talk¦» 02:19, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

Metal craft

I received a notice from Iruka13 regarding the image of a craft of our National Living Treasure awardee Eduardo Mutuc I had scanned, cleaned up, reduced and then uploaded. May I ask that one of the copyright experts help me understand this? very truly yours Valenzuela400 (talk) 09:09, 15 November 2024 (UTC).

Photos of three-dimensional objects are subject to copyright. Unless you took that photo yourself and are licensing it under a Creative Commons license, your modifications are derivative works which still violate the copyright of the photographer. --Orange Mike | Talk 13:34, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

@13 and @Talk Good afternoon Related question with my certification; please allow me to certify and state that the subject Mutuc photo I took is just one of the displayed actual works like Ikam Marife Ganahon Malaybalay Higaonon Manobo mats of Manlilikha ng Bayan (translation, National Living Treasures) or GAMABA National Living Treasures signage at the entrance of SM Megamall Megatrade Hall - inside thereat are the temporary museums of the open cabinets with translucent yellow gold walls encasing the crafts, including metalwork of the National Living Treasure Awardees; NOTE that all the displays encased in the open cabinets are the NCCA's objects kept in its Museum in Intramuros, brought at the fair for temporary views; Eduardo Mutuc's Pukpuk pilak is a metal craft encased in the open cabinet, which I took picture of, with my own camera as my own work; I edited, cropped it, appearing therefore that it is a picture within a picture; I would like to ask therefore, what other or any tag or license should I put in the description; accordingly I edited it changing the tag to Licensing self cc-by-sa-4.0, am I correct or do I have to change my edit, thank you very much very truly yours Valenzuela400 (talk) 10:55, 18 November 2024 (UTC).

Who currently holds the copyright to the design of the pukpuk pilak you photographed? — Ирука¹³ 11:25, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

Song lyrics translations

There is a dispute about the admissibility of translated song lyrics at a) Wenn ich ein Vöglein wär (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) and b) Es kam ein Herr zum Schlößli (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views). The source for a) is https://stihi.ru/2024/08/29/5879, for b) it's https://stihi.ru/2018/08/15/9373 . My reading of the Copyright notices on those pages prevents their use at Wikipedia. I've raised the matter with the editor who placed those translations into the articles, User:Tamtam90 (who made several uncivil remarks in their edit summaries), on my talk page. They claim to be the author of those translations and they point to a different Copyright notice in the footnote of https://o.stihi.ru/ which doesn't cover Wikipedia's requirements either. That website has a page on "Certificate of publication" which doesn't address Creative Commons or GNU licenses at all. What's to be done? -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 02:07, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

The way that could make sense apparently would be if Tamtam90 is С. Павлов. If so, the user could provide evidence to VRT. The vague reference to a discussion on Wikidata is not linked. A search did not find something like that there. However, there is something on Wikisource [5]. Not sure why the person who spotted the problem seemed to leave it there. Notifying User:Vladis13: can you please bring some light on this matter? -- Asclepias (talk) 18:25, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

s:ru:User:Tamtam90 is С.Павлов. I put the pages of his translations up for deletion, because, obviously, on the https://stihi.ru there is no notice that this is a free license; on the contrary, it says that the rights are reserved by the author. There I explained this in detail to the user and recommended improving the license on the site by indicating CC-BY, and using the VRTS system to solve all problems. The user said that he sent a request to VRTS there. And also I made a remark to the user there.
Wikisource Rules allow to use a different way for translations created and published in Wikisource, so this automatically licensed under CC-BY. - Just need to indicate the user as author of the translation and setup the CC-BY license template. This is what was done, example. Vladis13 (talk) 08:06, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

User:Tamtam90, I would advise in order to avoid the non-free license on the stihi.ru, to publish the english translation in en.Wikisource (s:en:Wikisource:Translations#Wikisource_original_translations). Then in en.Wikipedia to set the link to this translation in en.Wikisource. Vladis13 (talk) 12:42, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

Can I upload this Image?

https://www.flickr.com/photos/worldeconomicforum/52635557396 , I uploaded it as File:Ajay Mathur, Former Director-General, International Solar Alliance (ISA).jpg but it got tagged. Can this image still be used for that I have mis tagged its copyright status which really is CC BY-NC-SA 2.0? ExclusiveEditor _{Notify Me!} 05:21, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

@ExclusiveEditor: Creative Commons licenses that prohibit commercial reuse ("NC" licenses) or derivative use ("ND") licenses are too restrictive for Wikipedia's purposes; therefore, images released under such licenses need to be treated as non-free content. Given that non-free images of living people are pretty much never allowed per WP:FREER and item 1 of WP:NFC#UUI, a non-free image of Ajay Mathur is not going to be allowed. What you could try is to contact whoever controls that Flickr page and and ask something like what's explained here or here, and maybe they will change the license to something that's OK for Wikipedia; otherwise, I think there's zero chance of a consensus at WP:FFD ever being established to allow this image to be used as non-free content. -- Marchjuly (talk) 07:00, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

Adding a picture to a new article

Hi, I wrote the article: H. Karl Butler - Wikipedia I would like to add a picture of Karl Butler. My sources say it is just over 100 years old. This is what is left of my attempt. File:Merrill Butler (l), H. Karl Butler (c), and David Atwater (r) (circa 1923).jpg - Wikipedia I volunteer at the Camp Manatoc Museum. Our curator who is most knowledgeable about our local history is certain that the photograph was either taken in 1922 (during the summer when the camp was being developed) or in 1923 (during the first year of the camp). (Karl Butler died in 1926.) We do not know who the photographer was. It seems likely that the photographer died more than 70 years ago (which I was told is a magic number). The first editor I worked with thought I could use it under fair use even if I can't offer concrete proof that it is over 100 years old. We are talking about a photograph (one on display at the museum), not a published image. I have another photo I could use. Again, it is just a photograph that is on display in the museum and not from a published source. The description in the museum says it was taken in 1924. It is a summer picture, so it is just over 100 years old. My fellow curators were supportive of me writing the article and agree with me using the pictures. Can I please get some help on how to get one or both into the article? One of the talking points on Karl Butler is he was disabled, he could not run and play with other boys when he was growing up, yet as an adult, he was incredibly supportive of local boys. I want to show a picture that conveys a hint of his disability. Thank you so much! Warren OA17151104 (talk) 13:50, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

@OA17151104 as the image is from the US, 70 years isn't quite the magic number it would be if we were in another country. What we are interested in are authorship and first publication. I quite understand if this anonymous, it looks like a snap taken of three friends hanging out together, nothing fancy or posed and very unlikely to have been registered for copyright. The thornier question is previous publication. Is it just a snapshot or did it get used in a local paper, for example. If it turns out that the photo has just been languishing in a drawer for the last 100 years, then it is still going to be in copyright until 120 years from creation. If you can find a positive answer to either question then the whole situation changes.

For the time being, we can rely on fair-use (as per your upload) assuming there are no public domain images of Butler in existence. Are there any? Nthep (talk) 14:34, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

@Nthep:

Thank you so much for the prompt response. I have been told that Mr. Butler hated having his picture taken (perhaps because of his disability). I have been told that there are very few pictures of him in existence. Unfortunately, (since one cannot prove the negative), I have no proof that either image was never published. We have the two pictures that I mentioned in the museum as part of a fairly large display devoted to Karl Butler. He is also in a large group shot that would not work for my purposes. I don't think there are any more pictures. I can't imagine that there are some other public domain images. I'm sorry, but I know so little about image copyright issues, I don't know what else to say. Thanks! Warren OA17151104 (talk) 15:23, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

@OA17151104 Depending on your point of view, there's some good news and some bad news. The good news is that I've found a public domain image of Butler. The bad news is that this invalidates the current non-free rationale for the image you uploaded. I say current as rationale's can be altered. You said that one of the reasons you want to use the image is to illustrate Butler's disability. That's a entirely reasonable objective and you've said above " One of the talking points on Karl Butler is he was disabled". To justify continued use of the image it really needs sourced critical commentary about his disability and how it affected his life and works. At the moment I don't see anything like that in the article. Yes, there's mention of his disability but nothing about it's influences on his life and certainly not enough to justify the use of the photo. Nthep (talk) 19:02, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

@Nthep:

Thank you again for your help in getting this all done correctly and conforming to standards. I must plea ignorance about much of this process as this is my first Wikipedia article. Now all that said, what image did you find? The head shot from here (supposed to be a paste of a URL)? The Story of Camp Manatoc, 1931 - Akron Beacon Journal Photograph Collection - Summit Memory (Why won't URLs appear when I paste them in here?) Sorry, I knew about that head shot but did not think to mention it because it did not look like a man with a disability. To me, the key point is not how Butler's disabilities affected his life. The key point is how much good he did in spite of his disabilities. The disabilities did not stop him from leading a full, albeit short, life. The camp that he started is thriving to this day almost 100 years after his death. Furthermore, I wanted to tell the story of the origin of the camp. If I can't have a picture of him in the article, so be it. If I can with a different justification or a minor rewording, that is fine. However, I don't want this article to read or emphasize "Oh, look at that poor disabled man." I want it to read "Wow! What a great and generous man who overcame disabilities, and what a great story about the start of Camp Manatoc." Again, I appreciate your diligence in helping me get this all done correctly. Warren OA17151104 (talk) 20:00, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

@Nthep:

I see that you swapped out the picture. Can you please remove it? I would much rather have no picture than that picture. Thanks! OA17151104 (talk) 20:43, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

@OA17151104: Generally, we try to do what's best for Wikipedia when it comes to things Wikipedia even if sometimes that's not what we'd rather do. Copyright concerns are of primary importance when it comes to image use on Wikipedia, but encyclopedic considerations do matter too. When there are disagreements over the use of an image when there are no copyright concerns per se, things pretty much need to be resolved through article talk page discussion much like would be expected for disagreements over textual content. While File:H Karl Butler.jpg currently being used in H. Karl Butler is probably not the best possible one that could be found, the fact that it's a public domain image and also seems reasonable enough (at least to me) for Wikipedia's encyclopedic purposes probably are good reasons to continue using it as opposed to using no image at all. Of course, a similarly licensed but better image (if found) might be a suitable replacement, but perhaps it's best to leave things as they are until such a time. One thing you could try is to ask for assistance at c:COM:GL/P to see whether someone there might be able to enhance or cleanup the image a bit. Maybe Nthep could do that since they uploaded the image. -- Marchjuly (talk) 21:54, 18 November 2024 (UTC)